Matt Wallaert: Behavioral Science isn’t just for customers — it’s for redesigning culture too. A smarter way to build talent and inspire people's growth.

Why do we invest millions changing customer behavior but ignore how people behave inside companies?

In this thought-provoking conversation, behavioral scientist and author Matt Wallaert returns to Change Wired to explore the next evolution of behavioral science: internal change.

We discuss why most organizations treat employee behavior as fixed or random — and what it takes to build systems where people grow continuously, without relying on luck, politics, or the next big program.

🔍 In this episode:

• The economic bias behind why companies fund customer change but not employee change.
• How to make behavioral science practical inside organizations — linking people systems to business outcomes.
• 3 pillars of employee motivation.
• The problem with measuring value of employees through opportunity instead of capability.
• The Boy Scouts model of development: advancing by demonstrated skills, not politics.
• The trap of “participation-trophy culture” — and how to make growth easier without lowering standards.
• How leaders can start — by documenting their own growth goals first.
• The future of meaningful work: designing systems where people stay not because they have to, but because they can grow.

💡 Key Takeaways:

• Growth is not a perk — it’s a human need and business driver.
• People don’t resist growth and change — they resist misaligned systems that make it hard.
• Making it easier ≠ lowering the bar; it means adding clarity and support.
• The simplest place to start culture change? Write down where you’re going and how you’ll get there.
• Companies that measure capability, not just output, unlock deeper innovation and resilience.

🎯 Why you should listen:

If you’re leading transformation, culture change, or talent growth strategy — this episode gives you a blueprint for building systems that make growth inevitable.
Matt offers practical, evidence-based steps any leader can apply, starting tomorrow.  

👉 Listen to the full episode to learn how to turn growth into your company’s competitive advantage — one behavior at a time.  

👤 Matt Wallaert – Short Bio

Matt Wallaert is an applied behavioral scientist, author, and public speaker known among other things for pioneering how behavioral science can drive organizational change.
He currently serves as a Chief Experience Officer at Oceans, leading initiatives that combine behavioral insights with systems design to help companies improve performance, motivation, and growth.

Previously, Matt was Microsoft’s Director of Behavioral Science, the Chief Behavioral Officer at Clover Health, and the author of Start at the End: How to Build Products That Create Change.
He has advised Fortune 500 companies, governments, and startups on building behaviorally informed systems that make doing the right thing the easy thing.

📚 Learn more and connect:

• 🌐 mattwallaert.com
•  💼 LinkedIn: Matt Wallaert
•  📚  Book: Start at the End  

Chapters

• 0:00 Intro
• 1:02 Meet Matt Wallaert
• 5:15 Community Over Conferences
• 9:05 Bringing Behavioral Science to Other Fields
• 15:10 The Business Bias Toward Revenue
• 20:05 Modeling Behavior–Money Link
• 26:55 Meaning, Money, and Growth
• 32:25 Decoupling Growth from Opportunity
• 38:10 The Boy Scouts Model for Development
• 44:45 Growth Without Lowering Standards
• 49:40 Start Simple: Write Growth Goals Down
• 54:30 Why Leaders Avoid Growth Conversations
• 1:01:10 Autonomy, Accountability, and Growth Paths
• 1:06:50 Rethinking Attrition and Boomerang Hires